Tolkien also had letters that basically say the Orcs aren't naturally evil or something in that manner. Unfortunately, he never got around to implementing that in his work.

[–] keepcarrot@hexbear.net 16 points 3 weeks ago

I think most people with their own setting(s) revisit them and give and take about what stuff "really means" or whatever. I think I remember reading somewhere that he didn't like the "mass-production elves brutalised into Sauron's tools" origin story for orcs later on, but that one has been popular regardless.

idk, it's fun to explore narrative ideas without committing to any one. Elves and Orcs don't exist and people can hold on to the ones they vibe with after you've changed your mind

[–] Collatz_problem@hexbear.net 28 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

Also Southern and Eastern peoples sided with Sauron, because Numenoreans did so much slavery and genocide to their ancestors that they always fought against Numenoreans and their descendants.

[–] anarchoilluminati@hexbear.net 21 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Numenoreans are the ancestors of Aragorn and the Kingdom of Gondor, by the way, for those who don't know.

They were not always on the right side of history to put it lightly.

[–] Evilsandwichman@hexbear.net 14 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

And if I'm correct, didn't Eru Iluvatar xi-plz them?

[–] milk_thief@hexbear.net 11 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

They set foot on the shores of the land the elves sail to, Sauron told them to go there for immortality. The ruling king and his armies got trapped in rock and the earth stopped being flat bc Eru Iluvatar got so mad.

[–] milk_thief@hexbear.net 8 points 3 weeks ago

and ~~atlantis~~ Numenor also got sunk

[–] PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmygrad.ml 7 points 3 weeks ago

Yeah, when they stopped licking boots of his bootlickers and tried to invade ~~America~~ Valinor. Invasions of other peoples were ok. Fucking godlet.

[–] GalaxyBrain@hexbear.net 4 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Its possible as well that Sauron had some leaders in the south and easy in his pocket. The only named Nazgul was a Numenorean who had colonized part of the south

[–] Leon_Grotsky@hexbear.net 4 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

I thought Khamûl was the only named Nazgul and he was kicking around in The East/Rhûn?

[–] GalaxyBrain@hexbear.net 4 points 3 weeks ago

Sorry, I was thinking he was in the south not the east. Still works, just fill in a different cardinal direction

[–] tactical_trans_karen@hexbear.net 16 points 3 weeks ago

They always did have this air of elitism.

[–] PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmygrad.ml 6 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

That isn't even very coherent with Silmarillion though. Elves are contradictory people but they are are the original people of Middle -Earth (Dwarves, it's Dwarves ffs) but their outcomes regardless of culture century after century is the same. They were simply made to lose by Iluvatar, and when they tried to resist that fate, they ended even worse. Fucking godlet. And in the end, all the nonhuman peoples just "faded". This one short sentence, more than anything else makes me ask Tolkien "whose the racist now". And what's worse, the "fading people" got such a staple trope in almost every fantasy setting that exceptions are very rare.

[–] ReadFanon@hexbear.net 4 points 3 weeks ago

Of all the people aside from uncle Ted, I would have assumed that Tolkien the arch philologist would have gotten the eat your cake/have it too phrasing the right way round. Apparently not.

[–] Diuretic_Materialism@hexbear.net 2 points 3 weeks ago

Hun, so I guess the post-Tolkien thing where elves are frequently portrayed as aloof, snooty weirdos was actually intentional.