this post was submitted on 01 Aug 2023
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[–] DessertStorms@kbin.social 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Let me copy pasta myself here to save time and just say - they are already murdering us in the millions, any harm that might come to them is an act of self defence.

Look around - the violence is already here, it has been inflicted on to the working class for centuries, killing hundreds of millions (at least, in all that time) for profit in war, with hunger and restricted access to water, with homelessness and poverty, with preventable disease, with climate change, with immoral laws and entire systems designed to keep large segments of the population as slave labour, which is what they used to gain their power and wealth to be in the position to impose all of this in the first place. And all that just off the top of my head, there is so much more violence that is inflicted on us daily, they've just got most people convinced that's just life, when it really really isn't. And those who actually benefit are never just going to give all of that up.

[–] OwenEverbinde@lemmy.myserv.one 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

EDIT: I think I misstated myself. I'm going to be crossing some stuff out.

But they did though. Robert E Lee, Jefferson Davis, Alexander H Stephens, plus countless slaveowners all just... surrendered, and went back to owning the exact same plantations their slaveowning had provided the startup capital for.

Was it right? Hell no! Their plantations should have been given to their slaves. We would live in a better country if they had.

But it's worth repeating that people who blew out their chest and blustered about how it was better to die than to lose this fight just went right back to comfortable lives after a heinous, sadistic, brutal form of capital exploitation was abolished right out from under them.

If you can abolish slavery without killing Dolly Sumner Lint or Jefferson Davis, then it stands to reason that even after sending Pinkertons, cops, and bootlickers to die by the thousands, [EDIT: at least some of] these billionaires will surrender at the first sign of blood on their doorstep.

~~Meaning you can abolish capital without killing Jamie Johnson OR Jeff Bezos.~~

[EDIT: Meaning, in the course of abolishing capital, you will not necessarily need to kill every, single Jamie Johnson and every, single Jeff Bezos.]

Which in turn means the killing of those particular people -- [EDIT: those who surrender] -- ends up peripheral at best.

~~They~~ [EDIT: At least some of them] will not throw their bodies in front of the bullets aimed at their orphan killing machines.

As much closure as they would bring, as good as that would feel. [EDIT: Not all of them will make it that easy.] ~~It's just not going to happen.~~

And then, at that point -- when they have surrendered -- it's like torturing a serial killer. We gain nothing. It doesn't bring anyone back to life. It doesn't put the aerosolized carbon back underground or bring the temperature back to livable levels. It doesn't give back all of the years robbed from people by stressed and missed medical treatments. All it does is introduce a little bit more pain to the world.

Again: at best.

At worst it could potentially set a precedent that anyone perceived as "aligned" with billionaires deserves the same death inflicted on those billionaires.

In other words, at worst, it could turn the person holding the guillotine into the de facto capitalist controlling all of the factories, all of the land, and all of the equipment single-handedly. Because who is going to stop them? Anyone who challenges that person can be easily labeled a "reactionary capitalist counter-revolutionary" and punished according to that label.

[–] AnarchoYeasty@beehaw.org 2 points 1 year ago

Perhaps because even after they lost the slaves they were still rich as fuck and powerful. And then they passed laws to still enslave black people and fuck them over so shit didn't really change all that much. Think about how much better life would be today if every slave owner and klansman were put to death for their heinous crimes instead of slapped on the wrist and given back control of their slaves

[–] bloodfart@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

That’s a pretty ahistorical statement.

Plantation owners and slaveholders used the legal system to enact a second set of laws specifically intended to make freed black Americans subject to white rule and operated workplaces, schools and public spaces with separate rules.

The American prison system even has a carve out in the 13th amendment that allows the operation of a majority black prison in the south as a plantation where prisoners aren’t paid for their labor. To this day. There is an actual factual black slave plantation right now.

[–] OwenEverbinde@lemmy.myserv.one 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Yes. And it's horrible! And we should have done more!

We should -- like I said -- have stripped property from the slaveowners. They surrendered unconditionally! The North could have done with them as it liked.

It should have confiscated the property of everyone who profited from slavery prior to the war, and given that property to the slaves. And yes, the North should have killed as many people (be they slaveowners or bootlickers) as was necessary to carry out that transfer of property.

Station troops on the plantations. Shoot everyone who shows up with torches to burn them down and deprive former slaves of their newfound wealth.

But what I'm trying to say is: no more than that number. No more killing than is absolutely necessary to achieve that goal.

We should be imagining Jeff Bezos in prison, not dead. You don't want to make allies out of the people who want him dead. Those people are not good friends.

[–] bloodfart@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 year ago

How do you think Jim Crow was established? With violence.

It was not simply due to congressional reconstruction that programmatic land reform wasn’t attempted in the south. People were actively pursuing campaigns of violence during reconstruction.

There was no alternative to violent resistance.

There is no alternative to violent resistance.

[–] zbyte64@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 points 1 year ago

Reconstruction was ended through assassination. This was hardly a resounding conclusion to slavery but a re-systemization of oppression. For starters, the slaves never received compensation, whole many of the previous slave owners did. Same goes for the GI Bill.

[–] RagTheMan@beehaw.org 1 points 1 year ago

I am a starving child and this is the last post I will see before I die. Goodbye

[–] heavy@sh.itjust.works 1 points 1 year ago (3 children)

I kind of envy the mindset where one has empathy for someone who is so out of touch with reality given their status. I like to think I'm a good, just person that wants to do the right thing but when I think of what the billionaire's perspective is: someone with so much power and influence that most people are just objects or playthings to them, it's frustrating to think about. They think they're bigger than people, the earth, maybe even the universe.

I'm not saying I could be the triggerman, I'm not that kind of person, but yeah, fuck 'em.

[–] JackbyDev@programming.dev 1 points 1 year ago

Empathy doesn't mean you can't be angry. I feel sorry that they have so much money it's corrupted their view and made them heartless gods amongst men. Feeling sad for someone doesn't mean you can't be mad and it doesn't mean you can't want them to see justice.

[–] Mewtwo@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 points 1 year ago

It amazes me that people don't make the connection that billionaires are both directly and indirectly killing massive amounts of people. They force people to live paycheck to paycheck, skip meals, skip basic medical needs, work multiple jobs till they die, feel in a hopeless cycle until the depression is too overwhelming.

They deserve to die.

[–] agressivelyPassive@feddit.de 1 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Exactly. These people are downright evil. They at least accept that their actions kill thousands of people. Why would I has sympathy with a psychopathic murderer?

[–] Rozauhtuno@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 points 1 year ago

Every billionaire has enough power and influence to change the world on a whim. And every morning, every single one of them wakes up and chooses to be evil.

Imagine having so much money that you could never spend it all your entire life and your first concern is to hoard even more of it.

The more savy billionaires at least try to hide behind their "philanthropy", but it doesn't take too much digging to find out that those ventures are actually run for profit/propaganda.

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My tummy has the rumblies that only billionaires can satisfy

[–] Poob@lemmy.ca 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I want them to give up their wealth and power for the benefit of society. But they aren't going to do that, are they?

[–] atlasraven31@lemm.ee 0 points 1 year ago (2 children)

A rare few do. They're off limits.

[–] DessertStorms@kbin.social 1 points 1 year ago

If they still have billions to their name, they're not as good or generous as they've made you think they are.

[–] Poob@lemmy.ca 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

They sure aren't. They give up their wealth, but by doing so gain more power. They get to decide what is important for the world by dumping millions of dollars in their favourite charities. Charities that they conveniently get to put their names on to feel good about themselves.

[–] Nepenthe@kbin.social 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

So they're not allowed to have the money...and they're also not allowed to donate it? Am I clear? Because that seems stupid, tbh.

The world worked a little better when philanthropy was encouraged for the tax break. It always will. They get their cute little name on a plaque, whatever. The money goes where it's needed.

This is not to say anyone needs to be able to make that much in the first place, but demonizing one for also getting rid of it is funny

[–] Poob@lemmy.ca 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

The money goes where they want it to go, which is frequently not where it's needed.

And you are correct, they should not have the money, since they didn't earn it. They also shouldn't get to decide where it goes, since they aren't suited to make those decisions. It should be taken from them.

[–] gullible@kbin.social 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Behold, I am a pedant that agrees with you! However, I do believe that billionaires earned their money… in the same way that a plantation owner earned their terrifying hoard; using their complete moral depravity and means.

[–] Poob@lemmy.ca 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

See you call that earning. I call it stealing. When something is earned, it would be wrong to take it from them.

[–] gullible@kbin.social 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Vikings earned their broadly spread genetics in much the same way, complete moral depravity and means. Just because something is stolen doesn’t make it unearned, and just because something is earned doesn’t entitle possession. Theft begets reprisal.

[–] bloodfart@lemmy.ml 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Labor theory of value as applied to all human activity.

[–] gullible@kbin.social 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Just examples to illustrate that earning, deserving, rightfully belonging, etc. aren’t necessarily the right words to use in this context, but I guess it could be seen as vaguely communist in the right light. More sociological than political, though. Tax the rich, jail the physically and sexually belligerent.

[–] bloodfart@lemmy.ml 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

it's not a communist sentiment at all. labor theory of value is predicated on socially necessary labor not just doing any old thing.

what youre doing with those statements though is pretty disingenuous. the idea of earning comes from labor (it's literally the germanic to english word for a laborer and their pay) and has always meant that the subject of the verb deserves the object.

you could argue that the raiding parties believed they had earned their spoils, but in a human culture that generally doesn't hold that belief, saying it without that qualifier implies assent to the ancient raiding parties belief.

[–] gullible@kbin.social 1 points 1 year ago

Judging historic people by today’s morals just produces the opinion that everyone born more than 100 years ago probably deserved to have been gutted like the swine they are, which is exhausting but entirely true to modern standards. It’s just easier to think of them as amoral animals- the gazelle deserves the cheetah and vice versa by pure mechanics alone. Abelard castrated himself obsessing about the moral line, which was lesson enough for me.

As I said, I was just being a pedant for funsies. To phrase it another way, billionaires deserve their fortune but deserve its forfeiture a hundred times over. Deserve wasn’t exactly the right word so I poked fun while agreeing with their sentiment in its entirety. It was entirely disingenuous, and I said as much at the get-go.

[–] Draedron@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 1 year ago

Billionaires is a weird group of people to choose to speak up for.

[–] Narrrz@kbin.social 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

murder is murder... but some murders are definitely less... crime-y than others

[–] DessertStorms@kbin.social 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)
[–] atlasraven31@lemm.ee 1 points 1 year ago (2 children)

They're coming for you, whether you fight back or not.

[–] DessertStorms@kbin.social 1 points 1 year ago

Exactly, we're already just cogs in their money making system at best - some of us may die but it is a sacrifice they are willing to make...

[–] theodewere@kbin.social 1 points 1 year ago

coming for you? they're eating you right now.. they eat you every day, and will for the rest of your life.. every extra bit of you there might be goes into their bellies.. they've got it all tabulated already.. they know what sauce they're going to use..

[–] xedrak@kbin.social 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I’m sorry, but this point of view is so brain-dead to me. What do you think happens when a billionaire dies? The money magically disappears? It’s redistributed to the masses? No, it’s inherited by relatives. Killing billionaires only creates different billionaires. How about we use our brains and come up with actual solutions rather than parroting brain-dead bullshit?

[–] R00bot@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

You're taking the argument at it's most basic level, assuming that we would kill the billionaires and then sit around twiddling our thumbs. I don't think it's much of a leap to assume we'd change how the system works as well lol.

[–] xedrak@kbin.social 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Ok? Then maybe do that without the murder part??? If you have actual ideas of how to change the system, then do it?

[–] R00bot@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

They're not going to give up their control willingly, hence the killing them part.

[–] xedrak@kbin.social 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

But you still haven’t refuted my main point. If killing them just creates new billionaires, what does that actually achieve?

[–] R00bot@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 points 1 year ago

It wouldn't create new billionaires if you're also changing the system lol that was my point.

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